Episode 132 - A Focused Look at Botox and How This Causes Health and Hair Problems

 TRANSCRIPTION

Johanna: Welcome everybody back to the Alopecia Angel podcast. I'm your host Johanna Dahlman, thank you so much for being here today. I have a wonderful guest who is an expert in everything beauty, clean and botox and so much more. She is here to give us so much information and I'm so excited to have her here. Welcome Trina to the Alopecia Angel Podcast: Awaken to Hair Growth.

Trina: Hi Johanna, thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be talking with you today, this is such an important topic helping women defy aging without all the toxins that's polluting the body.

Johanna: Absolutely. I follow you and so I was really concerned because I know people who do botox and who do these fillers. I've always been very hesitant to do any of that and I truly don't want to go down that route myself. I prefer to just age naturally, but for those who do Botox, I do know that a) It's a neurotoxin and b) It does and can cause hair loss. And the other two items that I saw on your Instagram was that it can contribute to Alzheimer's and also to heart problems.

I was quite honestly flabbergasted about because I didn't know, but at the same time, I also talk about as a blind spot, breast implants. I know breast implants cause autoimmune diseases, it causes hair loss. And so it's these things that are marketed to women and yet it's things that are gonna come back to haunt us later on. So can you expand more on, on the Botox situation?

Trina: Yeah, Botox is a neurotoxin, like you mentioned, and part of the problem with Botox is that it gets injected and it doesn't last. So you have to go back every 3-4 months to get it re injected and sometimes it actually takes more the next time or at the longer you go, you'll need more because your body becomes sort of immune to it. Plus your muscles start to waste away. But part of the problem is that Botox doesn't stay where you inject it, it's not going to just sit in the area wherever the injector put it. Your body will try to break it down, it's a foreign substance. It will try to break it down and as it's doing that, it will also migrate to other areas of the body.

Botox, like other toxins, love to be in fat tissue, like to be stored in fat and they also cause a lot of immune problems. You know, they're a toxin that is going to cause chronic low grade inflammation in the body. So whenever there's chronic low grade inflammation, I'm sure that's going to lead to alopecia. That's part of the connection between hair loss. It's part of the connection between Alzheimer's and heart problems, as well as other muscle issues in the body related to Botox. When Botox affects a muscle, the muscle that they injected in, but the whole muscle group is a family. So when you inject into one muscle, you're not, not affecting other muscles and the heart is also a muscle and can be affected, not just from Botox that migrates to the heart tissue, but also just because it's a family.

So heart dysrhythmias or arrhythmias, you know, different beats abnormal beats or abnormal heart rhythms as well as heart attacks can be caused by Botox. Unfortunately, just like anything else in the medical world, those things happen and it's never correlated back to what caused it. So you don't believe or think that the things that you're doing in your day to day that you don't need to be doing, there's better options and alternatives can be omitted and that might not have happened. So that's part of my mission is to help women defy aging without needing Botox surgery or fillers.

The Alzheimer's link is very similar. You know, with Alzheimer's, you've got the blood brain barrier. So the blood brain barrier is a really tight juncture in the blood brain barrier, so the cells or the, the junctures are super tight, but when there's inflammation or toxins, that juncture can open up and then other things can pass through. That's where you will get some of the Botox that could pass through the leaky brain. We call it leaky brain syndrome into the brain tissue. Your brain is fatty, it's made of fat, and so toxins, not just Botox, but heavy metals and other toxins can get stored in the brain. Botox is a paralytic and stops the acetylcholine from going from the end of the nerve to the muscle, that's the same thing that can happen in the brain and that's how you'll get that change in the pathways inside the brain. Very scary, very scary stuff.

Johanna: It is. It is scary because again, it's always affecting women and our well being and our health. And of course, you know, I always question how this transmits into the next generation. Let's say, for example, I know back in the day, it was, you know, you shouldn't be doing anything while pregnant. And now people are getting flu vaccinations while pregnant, they're getting all types of whooping cough vaccinations, they're also getting probably Botox. A lot of people are still taking antidepressant, depression meds while pregnant. And so I'm always concerned, like, what does that next generation look like? Because they're already starting life at a disadvantage.

Trina: It's so hard, and as a mom, I started my company, Primal Life Organics. I founded it based off of a miscarriage, and that miscarriage opened my eyes to the pollutants, the toxins, the chemicals in our personal care products. What they've discovered or they found in research is that baby cord, the cord blood is contaminated with all sorts of things, including the contaminants from skincare products, the drugs or the chemicals, the phthalates, the parabens.

I'm sure it only makes sense that Botox injections, fillers, anything that you're putting in the body is also going to at some degree, some level cross through to the newborn and that is so unfortunate and to think of the implication and why are our children now being diagnosed with so many autoimmune diseases and having hyperactivity type of diagnoses. Why aren't we treating this at a level of nutrition instead of going at it with drugs.

Johanna: Absolutely, absolutely. So then you started your company and it's all based on the organic aspect of healthy, clean beauty. So do you have a product line? Do you offer this or is this another service?

Trina: So I founded Primal Life Organics in 2012. I'm no longer with the company and right now my mission is to teach women how to recognize clean beauty versus bad beauty, dirty beauty. There are so many companies out there pretending to be clean, pretending to be safe, pretending to be healthy or organic or natural and until you really empower yourself and understand how to read a skincare label, I teach you how to read a skincare label in under 5 seconds. You will know whether a product is worth your time, your money, your beauty, and your health under 5 seconds. It will save you thousands of dollars over the years.

I also teach you what to look for in beauty products. So I don't necessarily have a product line, but I also teach you how to make your own products. I have a course it's called Bold Beauty Course, where I divulge all the secrets the beauty industry doesn't want you to know. I formulated my own products, manufactured my own products for over 16 years and I know the insider information, the beauty industry doesn't want you to know. And so I'm going to teach you all of those things in my Bold Beauty Course and I also have a membership. It's a monthly membership where I'm doing a Bold Beauty cooking show.

So I'm teaching you how to craft and make your own premium skincare products at home in batches that will last you up to 2 years, because I know as a busy mom, I don't have time. I literally don't have time to make skincare products every week or every month. So what I do, and this is what I've learned to do through formulating, products and building companies is if I make a batch to last me 8 months to a year or a year and a half, I'm not in the kitchen all the time. I know, and I control the ingredients that go in the products.

If I'm looking for something for anti aging, so they call, so Botox in a bottle and Retin-A in a bottle, there's a couple ingredients, natural ingredients that do work very well and are kind of coined as Botox in a bottle or Retin-A in a bottle. Those ingredients are things that I teach you to put in your products and if you want some added sun protection, I teach you what to look for. If you're looking to purchase the products, you will know very quickly whether a company or a brand or a product is safe, or if you want to make your products, I teach you exactly how to do that. The problem with telling you this brand is good and this brand is okay, there's very few brands and I probably can name them on two hands.

The number of brands that I have found that are actually very clean and all of their products are very clean. So the problem with telling you: Oh, go buy from this brand, is that there might be one or two products that are okay from that brand, but everything

else is junk. So I would rather empower you to know what to look for. That way, if you come across a new brand, you'll know right away, whether you can trust it or you need to trash it. The other piece of it is that brands change their formulas and change their packaging because packaging matters too. I always tell people if you want to be a Barbie doll, buy your skincare in plastic. If it comes in plastic, you're going to end up looking like plastic.

Brands change their packaging and their formula all the time and if you don't know what to look for and you believe from a year ago that this product is safe, but they've changed their formula, they've changed their packaging and you're not paying attention, there you go. They've slipped in some of the chemicals and toxins through the back door and you just never knew it.

Johanna: So good, so good. What are some tips that you could share with our listeners in regards to clean beauty and maybe some of the myths or some of the things that they should just have a wherewithal about, or maybe anything else that, you know, they can't Google or maybe they're misinformations that are out there because, you know, in hair, there's a gazillion misinformation. This is why it probably takes everyone if you want to do it yourself to take over 4 years, like it did for me, or if not more. This is part of the problem, right? There's just so much information and then all of it's contradictory. So if you wanted to let's say set the bar, what would you share with us?

Trina: I think my number one tip would be to omit the water in your skincare. Water free. Be careful with water less because there's companies out there that are claiming their products are water less, but they still have water in them. Water in your skin care is just like sugar in your food. It's not meant to be there, it's not good for your body. Water in skin care is typically tap water and is sometimes distilled, but even distilled water can't remove toxic waste or chemicals, including drug waste from birth control pills, antidepressants, and heart medications. All sorts of things. Antibiotics. It's all in tap water and distilled water.

So when your product is water based, it means that there's between 70-90% water in the product. You're paying for basically water. When there's water in your product, there also has to be emulsifiers because the only way to get the ingredients, the good ingredients into your skin is they have to be soluble, they have to be oil based. So water and oil don't mix, so they have to put emulsifiers in. Emulsifiers are typically chemicals, they cause hormone disruption, they're known cancer causing agents, they cause immune problems, even reactions and they're not necessary. So if you have water, you need emulsifiers, there's fillers, there's a lot of times fillers, things that make it thick because water so thin, you don't want to put a water based something on your face if there's no thickening agent to it. And then if there's water, water breeds bacteria.

So you have to have really heavy duty preservatives, and those preservatives, again, disrupt your hormones, cause cancer, all sorts of problems. So if you omit the water and you're left with just the ingredient that actually matters, and by the way, synthetic ingredients, most synthetic ingredients need water. That's the reason that water's in most of the products is because the synthetic ingredients don't blend with oil. Synthetic ingredients don't do wonders for your skin, they don't service your skin cells, they don't have nutrient value to them and they don't easily cross through your skin, so they also have to put these absorbing enhancement ingredients in them, which basically means that it's going to pass through your skin faster because of these ingredients that will allow it to pass through your skin faster.

It's not just taking the ingredients that are good, it takes all the bad ingredients into your skin as well. Once inside your skin, your skin, the blood flow to your skin is is vascular blood that travels back to your lungs and your heart. So the chemicals, the toxin, the drug waste will get absorbed back into your bloodstream, travel to your lungs to be reoxygenated back to your heart, where your heart then pumps these chemicals throughout your body, including your brain, your lungs, your reproductive organs, your thyroid, everywhere.

When you ingest a chemical or a hormone or something, a food that has these ingredients, these things in it, your body automatically has a detoxification method called the liver. The liver is not impacted or used because the blood flow doesn't go straight to your liver like it would if you ingest something. So that's the real harm. And women you know, ingest because your skin is your second gut, ingest probably between 150-300 chemicals every single day through their skin. Even if you think you're buying organic, healthy, natural skincare products, if it has water in it, I hesitate and tell you that you're using skincare that's loaded with chemicals and toxins.

You should look for water free, which would look like all plant based, so you would see oils, essential oils, things like red raspberry seed oil, but coochie oil, coconut oil, hemp seed oil, frankincense, lavender, those are the types of ingredients. When you look at an oil, an oil is from the plant and it has all of the things in it that the plant has devised to stay healthy. So when you think about a plant being outside in the elements, it has to be able to fight off pollution, bacteria, virus, heavy metals, all sorts of environmental stressors and so the plant creates this beautiful symbiotic type of fluid and cells, and all sorts of things that in the oils and the extracts and the essential oils, you get the benefit. That is what you're feeding your skin, that's the nutrient value. Most oils also are high in antioxidants as well as omegas, as well as vitamins, A, D, E, C, all sorts of vitamins. So that's the nutrient value when you swap to water free oil based skincare.

Johanna: Wow, wow. That's impressive, that's a lot of knowledge. I definitely want to sign up for your program because you know, who doesn't want to age gracefully, naturally, and then also be protected from the inside out. And then also not have to deal with, let's say temptation of any sort for Botox or for any of these things. When I was growing up, the only thing that I heard a dermatologist tell me, cause I battled with acne in my teens and 20s but really bad. Like I was on Accutane this is how bad.

Trina: Oh, I took Accutane twice. Yeah, I took it twice. Johanna: 5 times, 5 times.

Trina: And it doesn't work.

Johanna: Well, it does, but it didn't get to my root cause. I actually ended up understanding that I have a peanut allergy and I was eating peanuts and peanut oil and whatnot. And so, you know, who doesn't like a Snickers or any of these things growing up? So.

Trina: Well, that's why Accutane doesn't work, cause it's the bandaid, it doesn't get to the root cause. And I do in, you know, in the webinar, I have a free webinar called defy aging without Botox, surgery or fillers. It's possible, I'm 55 years old, I'll be 56 in a couple weeks. I've had zero injections, no needles, no knives, I do everything natural and I teach you how to defy aging without those things. It's super possible by using the right products, but also some beauty tools and techniques that I teach in the course as well as in the membership, including facial fitness, I call it facial fitness or face yoga people call it and different beauty tools.

So yeah, it's super easy and you know, then you take control back from the beauty industry who has been lying to us and is continuing to lie to us in this very day. And now you've got social media influencers and celebrities trying to sell you skincare and beauty care products and they have no idea. They don't know how to formulate products, they don't know how to read skincare labels, they don't know what's healthy and not healthy. All they know is that they're getting paid to promote things to you, and now they're selling you things and you trust them, especially some of them that are health influencers or physicians, you know, that type of thing and you trust them.

But what I want to do is give you the power to know, so you can still follow people, you can still watch what they put out there, but you have the power to look at an ingredient list and know within 5 seconds in the beauty industry, if this is good for you, if this is going to cause premature aging or accelerated aging, or if this is actually going to reverse age for you.

Johanna: That's excellent, that's excellent. Yeah, the acne situation really, really got me looking. I think that was like my first step into diet and lifestyle. After that, then, you know, came the alopecia, but all of it is so connected. I think the one thing that I hear over and over, besides how great my hair is is how beautiful my skin is, because I truly believe if you're healthy from the inside, it's going to show and hair, skin, and nails are the first markers of health. Like you can put up a lineup of women, children, or men. And then when you see their, their skin, their nails, their hair, you already know automatically if something's off or if they are vibrant and healthy and glowing, right? It's a different level of wellness. And so these are the markers and this is what's important to everyone, right?

Trina: Yeah, I say your skin is your largest organ. It's the only organ really that you can see and it's communicating, like you said, it's telling you what's going on. If your skin doesn't look healthy and vibrant, just imagine what the rest of your organs look like. If your skin is dehydrated, if it's sagging, if there's no substance to it, if it doesn't feel like there's firmness to it, think what your, your, what your organs are looking like because the skin is communicating to you. I, same as you, I suffered with acne until I was 40 years old. I had a forest of acne on my forehead and down my cheeks. I had the oiliest skin ever. It wasn't until I converted and that's what basically launched my skincare company because I started making my own products and I saw results. I went through Accutane twice, I'd been on every single antibiotic, I took the over the counter stuff, the prescription stuff to get rid of my acne and it never really went away.

I had so many scars from all the years of acne and through my oil based programs that I've developed, my oil based skincare and all the other things that I've done, I have converted my skin. I don't need makeup, I feel comfortable without makeup, my scars are gone, I get complimented about my skin all the time. So I just want women to understand that the beauty industry is so powerful, they're one of the big conglomerates, you know, you've got big food, you've got big dental. And in fact, in my course, I actually have a module about dental health because I also speak about natural dental health, how to heal cavities naturally and the root causes of oral health issues.

So you're going to get a lot of that as well. Your oral health it's the gateway, it's another window to what's going on inside. So it's all connected, it's all, all related. What I love about you is that you've taken what was really just treated with drugs, you know, alopecia, and found a solution that's natural because that's exactly what I did for beauty. Now I want to be able to empower women around the world to know and to understand, and even if you feel like making your own products, having the confidence. I mean, the products that you make yourself are the best because you know exactly where the ingredients came from, you know exactly what you're putting in and you pick the packaging.

Of course, all of this is laid out for you with all my recommendations for the suppliers, for the packaging and the recipes and you control it. So if I have a recipe that you don't want to use one oil, you substitute the oil that you want. You learn this, it's so empowering and then you can also make it for your family, your kids, make it as gifts. It's unbelievable how much fun this is.

Johanna: Sign me up, sign me up. I can't wait. I actually make my own shampoo. I make a lot of my own hair products and of course my baby has been using it since birth and this type of thing and I love it. I truly feel too, when you make your own products, when you know what's going in, then you know what's happening and you are in more control of your health and your wellness and your wellbeing in general, because again, I mean, it's up to us. No one's going to come save us. It's up to us to advocate, to learn, to understand, and to put boundaries, right? There's some things that are okay to buy off the shelf and some other things that are not okay. Again, if our goal is to be our best self, then we need to take control of that.

Trina: Yeah and I teach you how to simplify it. Like, you know, when you talk about Botox or fillers and even surgery, there's an expense. Not just the health expense that we talked about, but there's also the monetary expense of those procedures, and they're invasive, they're not non invasive and there's a monetary, you know, Botox can cost, you know, $600 for an injection, you know, a series of injections, maybe up to $2000 a year. And then same with fillers. Fillers could be even a little more expensive. And surgery, of course, if you're doing a facelift could be thousands of dollars and it's not, none of those are getting to the root cause of aging skin.

There are 5 root causes of aging skin, I go through those in the free webinar. Once you convert and change those root causes, if you treat those root causes, you'll have beautiful skin, you'll probably get compliments for the first time in years about your skin, about how it looks, how you look so much better, and you'll feel so much better about your skin and yourself.

Johanna: I will say for those of you who don't know Trina, who haven't seen her in person, I saw her and I couldn't believe she was 55. She looks like she's in her early 40s, she really does. I mean, I thought...

Trina: Thank you, you made my day.
Johanna: Yeah, I thought I was talking to somebody my own age and yet lo and behold,

I was like: Oh my gosh, she's 55 and she looks incredible.

Trina: I'm telling you, there's so many things and it doesn't take a lot of time. People think: Oh gosh, yeah, but how much time do you spend? I literally don't have time to like divulge in beauty care regimens and you know, I don't have a day that I sit down and just do all the things. I make it super simple and I don't spend more than like 10 to 15 minutes in the bathroom doing my hair, makeup, and, you know, any beauty treatments. It's super easy, I simplify it, it doesn't take long, I teach you how to do facial exercises, I teach you muscle activation techniques, gua sha, massage all sorts of things, even tongue exercises, cause your tongue actually controls your posture and your neck and it helps to give you more defined neck instead of a saggy neck. So if you do some tongue exercises as well, that's going to help.

None of these things take a lot of time, you can do them while you're driving, you can do them when you're grocery shopping. Most of the time, some of them people will know you're doing them, but for a lot of them, people won't even know that you're doing a tongue exercise. Some of the tongue exercises that I teach, you know, no matter where you are. So it's easy, it's simple, it's just a new way of thinking. Instead of thinking: Oh, I'll go get the quick fix, you know, the Botox that'll fix it. In the long run, Botox makes you look probably 10 years older than you are in the long run, because it's destroying the infrastructure of your skin and destroying your muscle.

When you don't have muscle mass, because Botox paralyzes your face, it paralyzes those muscles. Your facial muscles are supposed to move. When you're not using your facial muscles, they atrophy, they get smaller as they get smaller over time, your face starts to sink in. When they're not being used they're not stimulating blood flow, they're not stimulating collagen or elastin. So long term use of Botox will pre age you. It will actually make you look older. And then what's the fix? What do they tell you? Oh, now it's time for fillers and surgery. So, that's the path that you go down when you start with Botox, is you end up needing the fillers because you've got nothing here, but it is reversible. So anyone that's had Botox, stop, that's the main thing. Stop, don't get any more and I can help you reverse that.

You're just going to learn to reactivate those muscles, rebuild those muscles, and then we'll work on the texture and the building, rebuilding the collagen and the elastin in the skin, increasing the blood flow. Blood flow is super important because not only does it deliver oxygen and nutrients to to the cells and the skin, but it also is a pathway for detoxification. So the more increased blood flow you have, the more ability for the skin to detox for the blood to pull out the toxins because your cells are constantly turning over. Here's a little bit of good news for anybody that's like: Oh my gosh, I'm doomed. Your skin regenerates every 40 to 50 days on average. So you're not stuck with the skin you have. You are constantly regenerating your skin.

So imagine in 40 days looking in the mirror and feeling like you've just got a whole new lease on life. Your skin's looking better, you're starting to get those higher cheekbones again, like you did when you were, you know, 18 years old and your skin feels and looks like it's got substance to it. That's what my goal is. I want women to really own their own beauty.

Johanna: That's huge, that's huge. Thank you for what you do, Trina. One question, are there anything else like Botox that we should be avoiding to not age quickly? Or is that in your program?

Trina: Well, it's in the program. You know what? I would say you have to throw in all of the products, all those, you know, plastic container products, even some in glass, I teach you all of that. It's not just face products, it's body products, it's deodorant, it's the hair care products. I'd love to talk to you and see what your recipe is for the hair products. Hair products are hard to make, they're very hard, so I would love to get your insight on that just to see what you're doing. But it's dental care, it's everything, it's the whole picture. Just like you don't just look at the hair. What's going on with the hair? How do we think you look at the whole body? I do the same thing. It's a holistic approach to beauty that the beauty industry doesn't want you to look at.

When you start looking at a holistic approach, you start to realize all the lies they've been telling you and how your beauty products are making your blood pressure go up, disrupting your hormones, so now you can't get pregnant when you want to get pregnant. You're breaking out all the time, your skin looks horrible because your hormones are out of whack, your menopause symptoms. I didn't even have symptoms for menopause. I literally had no premenopausal symptoms, no menopausal symptoms. When you get rid of the hormones in your beauty care products and your food, you won't have as many issues as you age. It's not just beauty related, it's health related. It's empowering to inform women because, again, we're stuck with what we're being told, you've got to get out of that cycle, you're on a hamster wheel, and you've got to start thinking outside the box and you've got to take risk.

One of the hardest things for women when it comes to aging, because a lot of women, by the time they start to see the signs of aging, they're already panicked. Oh my God, what do I do? I don't have time to wait and try natural products because they think they don't work, right? Yes, you do. Women that try my program and buy the products that make a difference see results typically within 7 days. Actually, in my program, I do an olive oil challenge where all you use is olive oil for 7 days on your skin. It's going to detox your skin, reset your skin, and in 7 days, most people notice a huge difference because you've just gotten rid of all the water. And you've gotten rid of all the pollutants and now your skin can start to breathe and breathe life back into it with blood flow and circulation and start to create collagen and elastin again.

There are products, ingredients bakuchi oil, marula oil, carrot seed oils, these are the things that I'm going to teach you to either look for products with these or make your own and those are the ingredients that will actually do what Botox, what they say Botox, well Botox paralyzes, but it's the effects that you want from Botox and Retin-A. Those are the things that I'm going to teach you how to do, but actually feed your skin the nutrients that it needs to actually do that. And then you'll look 10 years younger instead of 10 years older. So we're shaving 20 years off your face.

Johanna: That sounds amazing. I know people who've been using Botox like early on, like in their 20s and 30s, and they told me, right? I was like, why are you doing this? And they would say: I have the 11 here or I have this here. And so, and. If I do it now, then it won't be as bad when I'm in my 60s or 70s. And I'm just like: No, that's like the wrong thinking, you shouldn't be doing that to begin with.

Trina: Yeah, they're saying it's preventative and Botox is not preventative. There is nothing preventative about Botox. Botox causes the destruction of your muscle tissue and your skin tissue. There is nothing preventative, it's a bunch of hogwash. They're just lying to you. To prevent it you need to build muscle. There's easy ways to get rid of the 11 you can use electrical stim, there's beauty tools that provide electrical current. Really great, those are amazing. Red light therapy, another great therapy. There's blue light, there's violet light, green light. There's all sorts of different lights for different things happening on the skin for acne or for collagen, you know, all sorts of things.

Gua sha the gua sha tools massage, all of these things. There's a series of acupuncture, it's facial acupuncture that you can do and it will mimic a facelift for approximately 2 years. During that time, you go back every so often to get, you know, an update, but yes, there are things that you can do that are non invasive and that aren't going to destroy the 5 root causes of aging. Those are like gold. The five root causes of beautiful skin or the 5 pillars, I call them, 5 pillars of beautiful skin are like gold and we have to protect those, especially as we get older. But even in our 20s and our 30s, we can't be listening to those influencers and those injectors that want to inject you with things that are going to destroy your health and your beauty and take your money.

Johanna: Thank you so much, Trina. Anything else that you'd like to share as we wrap up?

Trina: You know what? I'll give you the link to the free webinar and if anyone's interested in the course, all you'll have to do is use the code "alopecia" and you'll get an additional $50 off the course.

Johanna: Fabulous. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And where can my listeners find you?

Trina: trinafelber.com is my website. And then Instagram is Trina Felber, it's usually my name for all of these social media. But YouTube is Trina Felber.

Johanna: Thank you, thank you. This has been so wonderful, I loved connecting with you and I'm so happy that we got to meet in person and, you know, be on the same page, cause I love meeting like minded people who defy and who say: No, there's a better way and want to make a change for others. So thank you for everything that you do.

Trina: Thank you. I love meeting disruptors, they're great, and you're a disruptor. Johanna: Amen to that, amen to that. Thank you so much.