Episode 139: How This Lady Defied the Odds With Her Fertility and Health Using Acupuncture!

 TRANSCRIPTION

Johanna: Welcome Kristen to the show, to the Alopecia Angel Podcast: Awaken to Hair Growth. I am so, so, so excited to have you because your story alone is magical. It is exactly who I'm attracted to. People who, women who defy the odds, women who say, no, there's a better way and go out and get it. And so I really want to share your story if possible with our listeners, because just like hair loss, fertility is one of those, subjects nuances where you think it's so easy and yet it's not so easy. You think getting your hair back is going to, happen in a pill, hair, skin and nails off of the supermarket shelf, and it doesn't happen. And the same thing with fertility, we think it's just, you know, having sex or intercourse and it should be done and it's not. And so, I really, really want to hear your story. And then, yes, any other details you'd like. I have tons of questions.

Kristen: Okay, great. I mean, my story started a long time ago before, Not really before I was thinking about having children, but I was far too young to be, you know, I always wanted to be a mom, that was a dream of mine and, I was a teenager and I had really difficult menstrual cycles. I got to the point where I would miss school. And, you know, I would say I had a pain level of 10 with vomiting and sweating and bloating and go up. Literally my bloating was so bad. I would go up two sizes and clothing every single month, every 2 weeks. So I have my left closet, my right closet, depending on where I was in my cycle and it caused digestive havoc. My parents are very well educated and would take me to very prestigious doctors and gynecologists in the area and I grew up right outside of Washington, DC. So I went to a gynecologist in Virginia and then DC and Maryland, I saw one in Delaware. I saw one in Ohio, one in Iowa, saw them in Portland, Oregon.

I mean, you name it, we were. Trying to find help for me and after painkillers and then hormone therapy, which none of it worked for me. In fact, the hormone therapy made me feel really horrible emotionally. I'm already a very sensitive person, but it made me very highly emotional, and did not address my pain, but I would stay on it, just hoping that something would change. Finally graduated from undergraduate college and started my first job and I kept missing work because I was that debilitated. I was like: I'm going to get fired if I don't figure this out and I was invited up to the mountains by my aunt and uncle. And we were going to go on a 17 mile hike the next day. I got my period in the middle of the night and I was so sick. I just, I couldn't get out of bed, I was vomiting. Well, I did get out of bed to the bathroom. I couldn't go on the hike, I was in bed all weekend.

And so then a month later they invited me back to the cabin to go hiking and I went and it was a month later. So I got my period again and my aunt, you know, she has her PhD, she's like: You can't live like this, you cannot live like this. You have got to go see a doctor. My acupuncturist and herbalist who I refer my patients to, and she's great. I was like: That is so weird, I just don't think little needles are going to help me. You know, I had seven OB-GYNs tell me to get a hysterectomy, that was their solution to my pain. I just didn't understand what acupuncture was, I thought it was very strange. The internet didn't exist back then, so research was really, I didn't go to a library to research it, I just was pretty desperate.

So I went and I followed everything she said. I took the herbal medicine, I went to acupuncture twice a week and within three months, my whole reproductive health changed. I was so inspired that I thought about leaving Portland, Oregon and moving back to the DC area to become a lobbyist to lobby for the medicine. I was so upset that nobody had advised me to do this, no doctor had said, you really should try this, this is a viable medicine that's been around for thousands of years, we've seen great results, just go try it. People kept saying, well, why don't you become one? And I was like: Ah, I don't know if I want to go to 6 and a half years and boards and no job and all the, the fear set in, but I researched the best schools in the nation and I left Portland and went down to San Diego and started on my path of becoming a doctor of acupuncture and a doctor of Chinese herbal medicine.

Johanna: So you became the doctors, different titles for each one and you have all this history and you graduated Summa Cum Laude, I read on your Facebook, I'm so proud of you.

Kristen: Thank you.

Johanna: It's a huge honor, not everyone does, you know, that's a huge honor. So kudos to you. You dove deep and you loved what you were learning. You know, this showcases in your work and of course the 24 plus years of experience that you have doing this. My next question is, so we know at which point that you started this love of going down this rabbit hole of learning and doing this, at what point did you say: Hmm, I'm going to have the babies that these other seven prestigious doctors said I could never have and do this myself.

Kristen: Yeah, so that was interesting. I found the love of my life at 27, married at 29, and I know normally age is like, why am I mentioning age in the fertility world? We're all very well aware of our age in the fertility world. We, it's hard not to be aware of that as a woman. And I was definitely in the back of my head, nervous because my husband knew by proposing to me that children was, it would be a deal breaker. I absolutely wanted to have children like that. I would have done anything to have children, I know that about myself. He has told me about that, about me. I don't think I would be a person who could have found fulfillment and total happiness in a childless home.

I would have done anything to have a baby. and so, and I know other people do find happiness in that way. And I, you know, just for us or for me, it was not going to be a path that I could live with. So anyways, we married, I was 29 and, we were both right out of Chinese medical school and, you know, very broke, paying back our loans, buying our first home, you know, doing all the things and my husband was not ready for us to have children. And so we started our practice and it took off right away and we just saved lots of money every month, every year. I was like: Okay, we have all this money, we're ready, let's go. It took him many years to come on board to, coming around to being ready to have a child.

So I believe when, I started getting very upset and impatient because I was starting to panic. I was 35 and he likes to tell the story that I got very mad and I went on a cruise without him because I kept saying I want a baby and he was not ready and I left in a huff and I came back and he was like: Okay, this year we'll try, but if you back up from that I started treating myself for infertility, even though I hadn't officially been diagnosed at that time while trying, just knowing that those doctors said, you probably will never have a baby and if you do, you're probably going to need IVF. And yeah, I had one tell me, I believe when I was 25 and single, he was like, you better hurry up and have a baby because it's unlikely that you ever will. And I was just like, I'm in Chinese medical school. I don't have a partner. Like, I don't even know what to do with that information. It was very upsetting.

So anyways, so I treated myself as though I were one of my infertility patients for a full year chinese herbal medicine and supplements to enhance my fertility. And so, we did get pregnant naturally without IUI or fertility drugs or IVF, thankfully. I gave birth when I was 36 and then very quickly after that gave birth again at 37. So we had two back to back and yes, so that's my story about coming back from, you know, being told by really smart doctors, you know, that IVF was going to be my only option, most likely.

Johanna: Looking back in hindsight, is there anything, with now all your experience, with all your education, is there now something that says, oh, this is where these doctors went wrong, this is where their line of thinking or their limited experience, even though they were OB-GYNs, couldn't have helped you or Is there something there in hindsight that, that tells you where they've gone wrong? So for example, in my own hair loss journey and seeing very similar, right. And seeing multiple doctors in Europe and in the US and being told, Oh, sorry, there's no cure. Sorry. There's no help. Sorry. You only have minoxidil or, you know, steroid injections or this or this or that. And I'm like: That's it and that's all we got for you, essentially. I can see where they went wrong and where I went wrong to get alopecia. Was there a, you know, a way for you to see in hindsight?

Kristen: You know, I think I was so young, so it's really hard for me to go back in time and recall, you know, what I was thinking, my knowledge base, I didn't have any medical background at that point in my life. I was young and I felt very vulnerable and I felt very panicky when they would meet with me, but it was also a very quick appointment. I mean, I remember once I had such a severe cyst that they didn't want me to drive and go back to college. I just remember, you know, being so upset because if I didn't drive, it was a 10 hour drive and he was afraid that my large cyst was going to burst and I would have an accident or not have help in the middle of nowhere and it was going to set me back by an entire semester. He wanted me to wait a whole menstrual cycle to hopefully see if it would dissolve.

So I didn't exactly answer your question with that. I don't know how to answer that. I was so young, I mean, literally these doctors were telling me this when I was 18, 17, 19, 21, 25, like every time I would go and explain my symptoms, you know, they would just look at my, the chart and be like: Oh, wow, you've got it all. Okay, lie down. Like, you know, is there anything else I could be doing? They're like: Well we could change your birth control or. I'm like, the painkillers don't seem to be working. They just give me a stomach ache. And they were like, well, we could give you double strength, which they did, which it didn't do anything. At the time I didn't know what, you know, in their minds, they, maybe they thought I was like drug seeking. I didn't even know what that was. I just wanted one pill for one day or two pills for one day out of the month. I think with my experience in practice, I can speculate where they went wrong, and I don't even know if I would say where they went wrong.

They're just working within their realm of expertise, which is phenomenal for some women's health problems and for some women. I just at the time didn't want to, you know, one of the other suggestions they had was to do an exploratory surgery to confirm endometriosis, to then give me a surgery, and then label me as having infertility with endometriosis. I said: Well what other treatment options would I have that you haven't given me? And they were like: Well, none, we've done the hormone therapy and the painkillers and then I said: Well, I'm not going to have a surgery for you to just label this, great.

I think that we're at least starting to understand in our culture, I think that we can't expect Western trained, so just a typical MD or an OB-GYN to be knowledgeable. Well, maybe knowledgeable, we can expect that and I'd like to see that, but we can't expect them to be experts in natural medicine, that's not what they go to school for. That's honestly, it's too much to bear. I'm not an expert in surgery and in pharmaceuticals and in ablation and things of that nature. That is what an OB-GYN, those are their tools, hormones, painkillers, surgery, that's their realm, and we want them to be really good at that. I feel that where we, and they are going wrong right now is when a woman is presenting with infertility, whether it's early on or late in her reproductive years, rather than immediately saying, here's some fertility drugs, go home and have intercourse, which some do that. Others will actually monitor a woman to see how the medications are affecting her ovaries and then help with timing and, or give her another drug to help release focal.

After 3 to 6 tries of that, they literally will say you need IVF, you need to go see a reproductive endocrinologist and I think that what we need to educate OB-GYNs to say instead is you have 2 viable systems of medicine that you can pursue. One has been around for over 2000 years and gets incredible results, it's all natural, here's an acupuncturist and master herbalist of Chinese herbal medicine. You have to have that as well, or you can pursue the IVF route or you can pursue them together. Those would be my options and I have names for you where you can do a consults with both and see which option feels right for you and go from there. Something of that nature I think would serve women and couples in a much healthier, better, holistic way.

Johanna: When it comes to acupuncture, does it have to go along with TCM, with traditional Chinese medicine, with the herbs, or can you do acupuncture on its own and see effect, effective results, or are the herbs necessary because it's like a marriage?

Kristen: So I have a dual doctorate in acupuncture and in traditional Chinese herbal medicine and if you ask almost any acupuncturist and herbalist who is trained, just want to be watch how I present this, but it would be similar to doing IUI without fertility drugs. So if you did acupuncture alone, it is its own. Form of medicine, using your own body to heal and help balance hormones. So it is, can be rather effective. It also is incredibly effective when you're combining that with fertility drugs, leading up for IUI and IVF. We've seen that in studies where we can almost double the healthy pregnancy, live birth rate of those procedures. So it is its own branch of a larger medicine. However, when you are trying to actually change the tissue within a woman's body, you want medicine, you want herbal medicine to, help facilitate that part of their fertile picture.

I would say if you had to choose between the 2, I would absolutely choose a master herbalist in Chinese medicine to put together your herbal medicine herbal medicines for your enhancing fertility or any health problem, really, and then change that every 3 to 4 months as you're going along and forgo the acupuncture. If you had to choose between, I can only do one or the other, the mastery in traditional Chinese herbal medicine is just absolutely critical for gynecological issues, including enhancing fertility. And so in my practice, we combine both, but in my telemedicine practice, where I help couples throughout the United States, they're exclusively using my herbal mastery for their fertility. We have babies born in over one third of the United States now.

Johanna: Wow, what is acupuncture and TCM really used for? Not just fertility. I know your husband does sports medicine and painful areas of the body with maybe certain past injuries. Any other areas that acupuncture and TCM would be beneficial?

Kristen: Yeah, so it is a full system of medicine. So what that means is pretty much almost any chronic condition that you, a person suffers from acupuncture typically can help. There are of course exceptions. We are very inefficient and not helpful in emergency situations. Heart attack, broken bones, that's emergency medicine is phenomenal and you want to utilize that. But with chronic diseases, because we can affect all aspects of the body, and reset our nervous system and directly affect things like the digestive system, the endocrine system, neurological system, or hormonal endocrine system. So, there are literally thousands of diseases and disorders that we treat from Crohn's disease to autoimmune conditions to depression and anxiety, neuropathy, pain syndromes, fibromyalgia, any hormonal imbalance from hyper to hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue.

I mean, there's so many, there's hundreds of, you know, thousands, colds, constipation, diarrhea, sports injury, as we had mentioned. So it's really good with, inflammation and pain. We're really good with digestive problems that are really difficult, like serious things like colitis and Crohn's. And, so it almost is what we advise patients to do is if you are suffering, I think it's really important to see your doctor and rule out scary things and get really, some lab work done or if you need an MRI or things of that nature. And then once you have your diagnosis, it's also really helpful to then see your acupuncturist and master herbalist and then use an integrative approach. That's my personal opinion about the best way to use both systems of medicine.

Johanna: Great. Why is it that here in the western side that we don't hear too much about acupuncture. We don't hear too much about what those possibilities entail. This is, you know, alternative medicine. It is known, but not super well known. It's not like, you know, there's an acupuncturist on every street corner, right? Like there's a Starbucks. It's not I guess as common as most people would say in regards to let's say doing your hair or Botox or teeth whitening, right? You're not going to see this in an ad, so to speak, like on TV. So why is it that it's still hidden even after so many years? Because it is an ancient medicine, even Ayurveda is very ancient. I dove deep into Ayurveda at some point in my life as well and I find both TCM, acupuncture, Ayurveda, I find it just very refreshing in terms of what the standard is in western society at this point, right, where we're just kind of trained to go to the doctor, get a pill and then go home and, you know, do the same thing over and over again.

Normally those pills actually, instead of one, it's 2 and then it's three and then it's four. And then, you know, by the time we're 60, the average person, the average American is on 4 to 5 prescriptions, if not more. And so this is not obviously the way because that's not helping society, we see that on a normal day to day basis. But when regarding these ancient traditions of medicine and of healing how is it that it's not so more well known, well, more poised for.

Kristen: Well, I do think that we are making some headway in that when I first started practicing, over 2 decades ago, 2 and a half decades ago, almost, there really were no jobs, you had to make your own private practice and then educate people and then they would come to see you. It was interesting because I've practiced in 2 different, very different parts of the country. One was in Southern California and San Diego, and then the other is in Idaho and I have seen a big difference. And so that was interesting to geographically to experience the United States. And the difference I saw was when I was practicing in San Diego, I literally opened my private practice inside the office of a very well known internist, an MD. And she, absolutely worked integratively.

I mean, every day she would come in and she'd be like, can you treat alopecia? And we're like, yes, can you help with polyps? Yes. Can you help with infertility? Yes. Can you help regulate cycles? Yes. Can you help with high blood pressure? Yes, yes. She would say to her patient: Okay, I think you should see Kristen for your high blood pressure because this medication's not working. What do you think? They're like: Yes, I want to and then they would come and see me and then I would get their blood pressure regulated and then she would monitor them and it was such a beautiful marriage of the medicine. So she Stayed within her realm of expertise and I stayed within my realm of expertise, but we would co treat the patient and I think that's the way it should be done.

We looked into opening a larger scale integrative medicine center with another integrative medical doctor. She was, another doctor who was also an internist whose background was clinical medicine. gastroenterology, and she had done the program with Dr. Andrew Weil in Arizona, which has, integrative medicine, and then my husband. So the 4 of us were going to be in a large integrative medical center in Southern California. At that time, every single reproductive endocrinologist referred patients to me. We co treated during IVF all the time. I literally, I did so much work with them that I wore scrubs every day because I never knew when an embryo transfer was going to occur because some of the embryos would grow to day 3, some to day 5, I was there on site. Even reproductive endocrinologists literally would refer me their wives for fertility treatments before they would start their own IVF on their own. partner. The number one profession of my patient were doctors and nurses. Period, end of story by far.

So I did see that integration in a much stronger, healthier, way in Southern California, we moved our practice 16 years ago to Idaho, and we definitely opened some doors here for natural medicine, and really have brought, a strong sense to the treasure valley where we practice of natural medicine, and I absolutely have seen a difference and here. Just a small handful of doctors will refer and see us for treatment. And so I think the difference is where they're getting their education and how exposed they are to integrative medicine and alternative medicine. That's my guess just from living and practicing in two different places in the United States. I think it's sad that our country hasn't become more integrative because there, there's so much benefit, but it is changing because even at, in the hospitals here, like they have acupuncturist on site for cancer support, labor and delivery.

So it's starting, it's very slow, but it's starting and I think you really have to ask MDs and surgeons and maybe mask their identity when you ask them these questions. I don't know if it's they're working for large corporations and maybe the corporations are saying: You can only inter refer within our system. I don't know that as a fact or truth. I'm just making assumptions, I'm not sure, why that there's a dissonance there. But I do refer out for IVF, I refer my patients to, reproductive endocrinologists when I think it's appropriate and or my patients are asking and or we've been trying things for a certain amount of time and we're just not making the headway that we like. There are a handful that I work with, mostly out of state.

Johanna: Wow. So how do you work with people out of state when the herbal medicine can be remote, because it's easy for you to see their tongue and anything else that they want to show you via Zoom.

Kristen: Our system is really investigative, like when patients come to me and or we work remotely, literally we start off with hundreds of questions and we go over all of their systems from urinary to energy to, you know, fatigue or mood to digestion to their hormones to, I mean, you name it, we ask it. And so we're looking at those patterns in their body and how it's affecting Specifically, if it's for a fertility case, their fertility, and so we're able to look at these patterns that have been established for thousands of years, and then match those up with very complex herbal formulas that then correct that imbalance, and we can see the shift. As you said, the tongue, so that's a whole other conversation about what the tongue reveals in your body health. We do have great tools now where we can use things like, certain apps to track women's menstrual cycles.

With my male patients when I do those, we pull semen analysis and we will do that every 3 to 4 months or 3 to 6 months, depending on the age of their partner and what's happening so that we can make sure that the treatment's working because we want to improve their morphology, their motility, their sperm count, all the aspects of their sperm and we can do that. And so that's the beautiful thing that I actually integrate some functional medicine into my practice as well and utilize labs to then, you know, effectively prove the medicine from a scientific perspective. So we don't have to just go off of, how are you feeling? Oh, your luteal phase is perfect. Oh, you had great cervical mucus, you know, all these body signs and symptoms like someone who has severe dysmenorrhea and. pain that's debilitating. And then under my care, they're like, my period snuck up on me. I didn't have any PMS, I had no pain, that was incredible.

These are all signs that your reproductive health is improving, but we also like to look at labs. Is your AMH improving? Which they used to say could never improve, and that's not true. My patient's AMH do improve, their FSH numbers improve, that's the follicle stimulating hormone, and that shows you how hard your body's working to release and grow and mature that follicle or the egg to get fertilized. So we can really marry those medicines and help patients see how their body's changing, and it's very impactful and very helpful. Also we can see you know that the treatments actually working because As most people experience. Going through infertility and or habitual miscarriage is absolutely an emotional, torturous experience that is more like a marathon and you have to have patience through that process. Even when patients decide to do IVF, it's not nearly as quick as they feel that it could be or should be. You know, on average, it will take 6 months, sometimes a year for IVF to work for a patient, sometimes more.

Johanna: For people who are harvesting their eggs because they want to do a retrieval and freeze them would acupuncture also benefit be beneficial for this time?

Kristen: Yes. You mean younger women who are freezing their eggs for future pregnancies. Is that what you're referring to?

Johanna: Yeah.

Kristen: It would be helpful. I mean, in theory, if you're doing this really young, which I know they're pushing a lot of women to do it and I have conflicting feelings about that but, to answer that question, absolutely. I mean, if you're going to do that procedure, you want to have the best results possible. And so egg quality is important. So typically, we would recommend prepping 3 months before the procedure and making changes in terms of super high antioxidants and giving patients supplements and chinese herbs that we know improve the egg quality. It's been proven in studies. So that the drugs work. In the best way. I think you asked about acupuncture, though, I apologize, I was talking about Chinese herbal medicine, but also acupuncture has been proven to increase blood flow to the ovaries and the uterus and also regulate the hypothalamus pituitary ovarian access.

And so those are things that really we can see improvement in their bodies. And I would highly recommend someone doing that during that procedure. They also can tolerate those brutal fertility medications much better. So they are going to have symptoms, they are going to feel quite unwell on them. If you get acupuncture, you really can tolerate that those changes in your body and the bloating and the discomfort. So much more readily than without and I know that because I have patients who went through IVF without my care And then they go through IVF under my care and have vastly different experiences for the most part.

Johanna: Wow, that sounds amazing I have friends who've done the harvesting of the eggs and the freezing of the eggs in multiple cities and countries around the world and when I talked to each one of them, their, their experiences is very different. None of them have done it with TCM or acupuncture per se, but something to think about for sure, should any other woman listening to this podcast or friend of mine be interested? I would probably definitely recommend it. another question that popped up for me was. In terms of acupuncture and TCM, is this like going to the gym, right? Where consistency is key, where you need to do this. It's not a one and done. It's not like: Oh, I did 30 minutes on the treadmill today. I'm good for the month. You know, sometimes we western society, we think this right, we think that it's just a one and done and I want to kind of like open this up a little bit and say: No, this is actually like, more of a, a marathon, right? Not a sprint.

Kristen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a great analogy. You know, you would never expect to go into a marathon and or, a bodybuilding competition working out one time. You're really trying to have an impact over changing the physiology, the hormone endocrine system, like all the different facets. within your body. And so frequency and consistency is key. And so that's one of the things that's nice about the herbal medicine is you, once it's prescribed or recommended, you take it on your own at home daily. I usually have my patients take it twice a day. Oftentimes the recommendations is 3 times a day. It's very difficult for patients to get that third dose in the often forget it. So we usually up the number of pills and do morning and night.

And then acupuncture varies one to three times a week, depending on your age, your, your diagnosis, what you're struggling with the urgency, if you're prepping for IVF and it's coming up very quickly, like we, the advice changes. And then once you are pregnant, the frequency of acupuncture, I also will change based on the woman's history. So if she does not have a history of miscarriage once a week is fine through the first trimester and then I wean my patients to monthly because pregnancy is not a disease, but we can improve how she navigates that experience and all the body changes from nausea to joint pain to sciatica to blood pressure issues and there are several points on the body that help prevent miscarriage with, of course, if the baby's healthy.

If a woman has habitual miscarriage, where she's had several miscarriages, then we recommend twice a week, one week past her longest pregnancy. So if she was pregnant for, and we always go past the first trimester, just because that's the most. vulnerable time. But if her longest pregnancy was 19 weeks, then we go weekly, twice a week through week 20. Then she and I together will decide how quickly we wean her. So I'll usually be ready to say: Okay, I'll see you in a month. And then the patient's like; No, no, no, no, I'm not ready yet. You've gotten me this far. I am not ready to quite go that quickly. And so maybe we'll go down to once a week and then every other week and then every, you know, 3 weeks and then monthly. And then once we hit week 37, I do a strengthening treatment or 30 week 36. And then week 38, as long as the baby's head down and everything's healthy, we start a gentle labor induction treatment to start labor for those who are going to try and have a vaginal birth.

Johanna: Wow. you know, had I known, had I known about acupuncture, I have a couple close relatives who are literally 10, 15 years younger than me. And when I had my first baby at 40, the pregnancy was just beautiful. I had an amazing pregnancy, no pain granted. I was doing yoga on a regular, I had been doing yoga and Pilates for over 20 years at that point and I had an amazing, just phenomenal pregnancy and birth too. And yet, you know, these women who I'm thinking about or were 10, 12, 15 years younger than me, and they had the worst complications with their pregnancy, with their delivery, you know, C sections each time, and then also like sciatica pain, like you just mentioned, and just, you know, having to lay on the floor for hours because the pain was just so bad.

I never understood it. I was just like, how is it that you're 29 and I'm 40 and we have just, just complete different opposite spectrum of a pregnancy or of, you know, labor and birth, like, how is this happening? But I always go back to diet and lifestyle, but then of course I always think that there's always ways to support ourselves and acupuncture and TCM is definitely one of those ways.

Kristen: Well, sometimes women don't realize, you know, when they are pregnant, they don't realize that they have an autoimmune disease. But you know, they don't know that they have an inflammatory condition. They don't know that they have a connective tissue disease. It hasn't been diagnosed yet. So sometimes these women will have really healthy lifestyles and they're doing yoga or gentle exercise or, you know, drinking enough water and getting enough sleep and doing all the right things. And they're still having so much pain or, you know, their hyperemesis where they have extreme nausea and vomiting or someone will have debilitating headaches and there's very little medicines that we are comfortable giving women while pregnant, the arsenal is quite narrow.

And so this is a great time to have a supportive environment and have an acupuncturist who's skilled with women, who know how to treat pregnant women safely. And so, that is one thing that you, you do want to look at the licensure, all acupuncturists. Do not have the same training and so you do want to go to an acupuncturist who has a minimum of five years of training and pass their board exams. So there are other acupuncturists, people who do acupuncture, who literally only study for 100 hours, usually those are chiropractors or MDs, sometimes naturopaths, so it's a very different system and very different form of acupuncture if you only have 100 hours of training.

Johanna: What to look for when researching, an acupuncturist or a professional in, traditional Chinese medicine and what to look for when, you know, I start opening Google and start searching.

Kristen: Well, the highest and most current doctorate you can get the highest level of training is you want to look for the letters D as in doctorate, DAc and then CHm that's the most training that you can possibly get in the United States and then the other one to look for would be LAc, so it's licensed acupuncturist, but you still need to ask the doctor. And so I would just ask them if you're researching them, just say, how long was your training? You know, how many hours and or years you, and they, they should be able to tell you that. so, I, it, yeah, I would say those are the two main ones to look for if you're looking for the most advanced training, in this medicine.

Johanna: You know, when I, when I think of the doctors who, who I saw with my alopecia or, and maybe this, this was also a factor with the doctors you saw as maybe as prestigious and as educated as they were. I personally don't think no one is perfect and, and there are, you know, blind spots and things that people misinterpret or maybe are not seen or, and I feel like sometimes doctors, especially they can say things when you're at a vulnerable stage or age and you're not maybe comprehending the full grasp of everything. And they'll say things that either want to deter you from taking a next step or deter you from taking an alternative route.

In my case, when they were saying all these allopatient, how, you know, next step was for me to go bald and next step was this and next step was that I was just like: No, no, no, this doesn't make sense, I'm in my 30s and I've always had big hair, like. Why is this happening now? And so I question them and, and their experience, even if they were in their 40s or 50s, and I was only in my 30s, like, I still question people's experiences because age is one thing, but doesn't necessarily mean experience. This is probably what you get also in your field or in your industry of acupuncturist and traditional Chinese medicine as well, where, you know, I can be certified tomorrow with that certificate or degree and then, you know, you're getting what you get. And not everyone knows that, like, I didn't know that. So I love that information. It's so valuable to be sharing that because again, the experience counts, like you focus. primarily on fertility, is this correct?

Kristen: Correct. Women's health is my expertise, and I'm most known for fertility, but I do see teenagers who struggle with hormonal imbalance, and I do see women going through menopause who are struggling as well. So any hormonal disharmony or discord, but I just, Most known for fertility and preventing miscarriage, I would say.

Johanna: In terms of miscarriage. How? How would TCM and or acupuncture help? Let's say either during or right after the miscarriage.

Kristen: During or to prevent?

Johanna: During the miscarriage because you know, sometimes it's inevitable and you're you're kind of in it or even right after let's say this is like 2 days after miscarriage and I come to you versus maybe in tandem with a regular OB-GYN.

Kristen: I would say that's really critical that you either are seeing your midwife or your OB-GYN, clearly, if that's happening, because there can be really heavy bleeding that occurs, there can be tissue that's stuck, there can result in infection, so you really want to make sure that you are having an integrative care approach. But during and after that time, process. You can expect to have, pain management support, but also, recover emotionally. It's very devastating for women to go through that process, and so a lot of fear and anxiety and sometimes depression will come in. We also will then post miscarriage, rebuild your blood because there is quite a bit of blood loss with that and then help regulate your hormones more quickly because some women find after they have even one miscarriage, they can have hormonal imbalance for up to a year.

They can have menstrual cycles that don't start or all of a sudden they had regular cycles and now they're just all over the place or late or early or. blood flow changes, color changes, they can all of a sudden have pain that they didn't have before. So, we can really regulate those hormones more quickly, even if someone isn't coming for fertility enhancement just for, I mean, typically they would, because if they had a miscarriage, then they're hoping then to have another healthy pregnancy after that. So I would say that's the thing that you want to, that you would be able to help most with post miscarriage.

Johanna: For my ladies in menopause that are listening, could you, does acupuncture and TCM help with the hot flashes? With anything else that you know, you can and might experience through menopause?

Kristen: So some women go through menopause beautifully like your pregnancy where you're like, I had no pain and I feel great. And, but I would say that's a small percentage of women. Most women who go through menopause, there are actually so many more symptoms than we think of menopause, we think of pot clashes and night sweats, right? That's when you think menopause, those are the things that come up for us. And we are absolutely incredibly helpful for that. And when you haven't experienced those, they sound so delicate and light and not a big deal. These can be incredibly destructive and invasive to your life, they can be embarrassing, they can be depleting, women can be just covered in sweat and not sleeping well and restless and having to change their clothes and their sheets.

Other women will have it on a more mild case, but it can be disruptive in a work meeting or a zoom situation where you just are flushed and literally your hair is soaked and your body is soaking wet and then they will end up having some women will have vaginal dryness, low sex drive, joint pain, weight gain, belly fat. You know, emotional dysregulation, a lot of irritability and frustration and easy to rage. Some women will have heavy, heavy menstrual flows. And so, other women will all of a sudden have pain for the first time with their menstrual cycle. So there are so many things, insomnia is a big issue and literally we can help with every single one of those symptoms with menopause and most of my menopausal patients that come and see me are so upset that no one told them to come earlier because we get these things resolved pretty quickly and it is very rare that I cannot help someone who's going through menopause.

There are cases that I do recall and they really stick out in the 24 years because it really is that rare and I just feel so bad for them that we didn't have the impact in over their hormone regulation that I usually have, but most women, really can experience and go through menopause in a much more graceful way and get better sleep. It doesn't usually take long for me to get control over hot flashes and night sweats and I don't do it with hormones. I don't do it with bioidenticals. I don't do it with hormone therapy. There's so much controversy in those treatments. You will hear pros cons that, that, yeah, I think that's a difficult treatment plan to go that route. I think that if we can avoid hormone therapy, then we should, some women can't, but most can.

I just think, again, we have that disconnect of women don't know their medical options and I want to change that through writing books, through being on podcasts, through educating my patients to then educate their friends. And then, you know, I would love for doctors to start saying, you know, we have some options. I can help you through giving you hormones. or you could go see this master herbalist and acupuncturist and, and then come back and see me in three months. And if you're not feeling better, we can revisit maybe trying something.

Johanna: Is it safe to say that someone who's new to acupuncture or TCM, there would be no negative side effects to this, since it's natural medicine?

Kristen: So I think that using the word no for anything is, not dangerous, but everybody's going to experience every form of medicine a little bit differently. And every provider has different personalities and expertise and needle techniques. And as we talked about, education is really important. Even though I just love what I do and I love my patients, I'm not going to be right for every single person in the world, like, and even every person that walks through my door and that's okay. You don't have to become disgruntled or upset, you just say, you know what, that provider, I don't know, we just didn't quite click or she didn't get me or I didn't get her or, and you find someone else and that's okay.

I think that sometimes we have these expectations that. You know, you're going to find the perfect doctor or the perfect doctor of acupuncture on the first try, but the beautiful thing about the medicine that I love so much as it is quite possibly the safest form of medicine on the planet, and it is very difficult to do harm, particularly with acupuncture. To give an example, I have over 5,500 hours of training when you just talk about just the acupuncture part and just the training of the actual learning of how to put the needle in. My first year, I wasn't allowed to touch a single patient, it was all theory based, you just memorize depths and angles of insertion. And then the second year you get to then, practice on a cadaver and tomatoes. The reason you do tomatoes and eggplant is because they also have a thin skin, so the penetration feels very similar to a human so that you can gauge how hard to push, how light to push, what kind of tapping you need.

And so I would practice left handed, right handed. I would blindfold myself, I practiced. literally hundreds of hours on inanimate objects. And then your third year, you are then permitted to and a second year also, you start needling your classmates, which is really a quite unpleasant experience for all of us. And then you do that for a full year and then your third year you continue to needle your classmates and then you observe in a clinical setting where you have a licensed acupuncturist then the intern and then you just watch and that's all you're allowed to do other than you are allowed to pull the needles out and then your fourth year you are allowed to then needle patients under a clinical supervision of a licensed acupuncturist.

Then you have to pass clean needle technique, you have to pass your acupuncture boards. I passed both Nationals and California, which at the time was a 50% failure rate. I don't know what they are today. and so very challenging. So that, then you get to go into private practice and start needling your patients. And you compare that to dry needling. Dry needling in the United States, physical therapists, chiropractors and MDs, 27 hours of needle training with an acupuncture needle, and then they're allowed to go needle you. And it's the same needle and they're attempting to have the same therapeutic effect in musculoskeletal conditions. So I would say absolutely do not pursue dry needling, it's 27 hours of training, there's no licensure, there's no board exam, there's no continuing education and you don't go through all those steps to learn proper needle technique, proper needle depth. So when you ask me, Is it dangerous? Dry needling has a really high likelihood of, puncturing lungs. They now are revoking dry needling from 4 states because of the injuries.

So, when you say, is it safe? Yes, under a qualified provider incredibly safe medicine. But if you only have a weekend class, no, I would not say that it's safe. So that's how I would answer that, you really want someone who's really well educated and has a lot of experience. You can expect to get some bruising once in a while. That's normal, I actually, when I do acupuncture facelift or acupuncture facial rejuvenation treatments for my patients, we tend to get bruising around the eye, and so we warn the patients, it's really common, we have lots of beautiful veins going up into our head and our face so that we keep our brain healthy with blood flow, but it can also happen anywhere, and it's normal, it's not, doesn't mean that your acupuncturist is not well trained, it's just, we have a highway system of veins underneath the skin that you can't see, and sometimes you just will get a little bruise. And it's not a problem, and it's to be expected.

Now, if you bruised on every point, I would be concerned and we would say, okay, we need to draw labs, like be concerned with more serious, like anemia or some sort of, you know, blood disorder that we're not aware of. And so that can be, you know, an alert that should never happen, did that answer your question?

Johanna: It did. You're such a wealth of information. I love talking to you. My other thing is because now you're opening my eyes, I didn't know that you could do an acupuncture facelift. So please indulge us and let us know what this looks like. Only because a couple of weeks ago, I had Trina Felber who comes from a holistic natural products industry, she created her own industry, sold it and now she's teaching people about the harmfulness of Botox, the harmfulness of, you know, fillers and she's all about holistic, just hair cleansers, toners, you know, all these things that she shows you how to make at home, which I love, indulge us with your acupuncture facelifts.

Kristen: So, this is something that not all acupuncturists are trained in. I am trained in it and I really actually enjoy doing it because when as we discuss do so much infertility work, it really is life and death every day, every month for my patients, you know, they are going through probably one of the most emotionally devastating times in their life and it is rather heavy emotionally. In fact, I have a colleague who she, like me was spending the majority of her career doing acupuncture, fertility enhancement, just like I have been doing. I met up with her recently and she's in another state and she's like: Oh, I don't treat infertility anymore. I was like: What are you talking about? She's like: I just, I couldn't handle it anymore emotionally, it was just too devastating at times and it's just a lot to carry emotionally.

I was so surprised by that, but. I didn't mean to move away from that, but anyways, it's really fun to do because I would agree, botox and fillers are, you know, botox is what the most toxic neurotoxin known to mankind that we're literally injecting into billions of women's faces and some men. I have patients who get that treatment done and then they end up with systemic joint pain for weeks and they continue to do it. It's one of the most lethal toxins known to mankind. And anyways, I really commend your, colleague or friend who is doing that work. And so, this is basically, we were the founders of microneedling, we've been doing this for thousands of years. It used to be a procedure that was only, permissible for like the empress, she would have these herbal masks and herbal medicines that you can take to reverse brown spots and help reverse wrinkles.

And so I assess with my patients what their main concerns are. Most women don't have those that come to me for it, don't like their wrinkles on their forehead or lines or around here, or they're worried about their neckline and some do Botox. Some will never ever do that, and some do filler, some don't. So we can work around that depending on when they had those procedures done. And so then we take very fine needles about as thick as hair, and then we thread them gently along the line to help stimulate the production of collagen and lift the skin and really bring a vibrance of blood flow to the skin. And so, it's fun. I love it. I think face lift is a little extreme cause that's more what plastic surgeons do, but absolutely facial rejuvenation. If you do it consistently, either once a month, or if you do a series of 10, you will absolutely see a difference in your wrinkles and your skin tone.

I had a patient here and she would do FaceTime with her bestie in California and weekly. And I was giving her a series of treatments and all of a sudden she opened up her zoom or FaceTime with her bestie on a iPad, a laptop, she was like: Oh my God, did you get a facelift? I mean, she literally thought something really extreme. She goes: Oh no, I'm getting acupuncture facial rejuvenation. So it's a great alternative. I highly recommend it. to any woman or man who wants, to slow the aging process and just look their best.

Johanna: I was actually reading an article the other day, how this one, I'm not going to name their product company name, but their product company name apparently has a lot of teenagers that are following them when this product line is actually made for women in their 30s, 40s, 50s plus it's not made for teenagers. And so they're just trying to see like how young is too young. In your, in your experience, what age do you think would be a good time to start with this facial rejuvenation?

Kristen: That's a great question. You know, I think, first of all, I think our culture is youth obsessed, it's, worysome and bothersome for me, but I also understand, you know, I live in this culture, and so I'm not immune to those feelings. I think that if a teenager came to me and said: Oh, I want a facial rejuvenation. I think I would have a deeper conversation with her about, you know, why is this concerning her? Why is she worried about it? You know, I would rather honestly talk to her more about just overall health and skin health in general and or hormonal health. A lot of teenagers struggle with their hormones. It does work really well for acne though. So if she was struggling with acne, I understand that that can relate to confidence, but if she's trying to like not age as a teenager, she would be a minor. So I'd be talking to her parents about what's really going on here? Like we don't want to create the way you have body dysmorphia into like aging dysmorphia or something.

So I wouldn't necessarily be a fan of that, but I think anytime, of course, preventative medicine is great. So if somebody were in their 20s they're like, you know what? I just want to do this like as a spa treatment to relax, and I just want to work preventatively. We can absolutely do that at any time, but I wouldn't do a series of 10 on a 20 year old. I'd be like, well, come in monthly and just enjoy it and we'll work on deeper issues, you know, inside the body as well from a systemic point of view. And, you know, usually if you talk to them, , it turns out: Oh, they have constipation or they have GERD or they have alopecia or they're struggling with hair loss or, you know, they have period pain and we can work on those deeper issues. I think once you get into your 30s, most people have some wrinkles that they're trying to have them be a little less prominent, and, or, you know, lift their skin and their face. So I would say 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s.

Johanna: You think once a month is okay? Or does it need to be like a weekly thing too?

Kristen: I would say when you're younger, monthly is great, you know, 20s, 30s. But in your 30s I would say if you initially are coming in and you want to see an impact, I would say weekly for, you know, a series of usually we say 10 or 12, if you really want to do something special, like let's say you're, you're getting married or you're going to be in someone's wedding, you want to have more impact over that area. Then you want to stop the procedure one month before your big event because bruising can happen. So we would do that. So, but we're really flexible, it's not like it's a serious disease that we're trying to cure. So someone wanted to come in for 3 or 4 or do, you know, once a week for a month and then monthly for fun. I also really enjoy, we have this little roller that we like that you can do at night, every night. And I really like that. Yeah, it's fun.

Johanna: Wow, wow, very enlightening. Is there anything else that you'd love to share with our listeners about you, your practice, anything, tips or tricks that you would love to share? Anything?

Kristen: You know, I just think that it really is up to you to empower yourself. I think we need to stop relying on our western trained doctors to give us natural medical advice. And so ask your friends research, you know, websites and podcasts, we have a blog where we post, we have Instagram where we try and make relevant posts about, you know, things you can drink and things you can do and how to de stress and things like that, and you really can find the perfect marriage of finding the right providers. And now with telemedicine, you don't have to be stuck within like a 10 mile or 20 mile radius of your home. You really can reach out and use the best of both medicines. I believe in first do no harm.

So if you get a diagnosis of something that feels heavy and scary or big, find your provider who knows natural medicine inside and out and get their experience and get their opinion as well, because you may find that there are actually natural recommendations and herbal medicines and or acupuncture that can resolve that problem and you may not have to be on a medication for life, that's not always the case. I just think you can empower yourself. You have lots of choices, you just have to do a little research to find the right people.

Johanna: That's, that's exactly why I brought you on because I was like, she defied the odds, she took her life in her control of her fertility and so much and I love hearing these stories and even though it has nothing to do with hair loss, but it definitely has something to do with women empowering themselves and arming themselves like: No, I'm going to bypass everything, what you're saying, and I'm going to do me and on a better way and you did, and now you have a beautiful family. You're about to celebrate tomorrow, 22 years of marriage.

Kristen: Yes, thank you.
Johanna: You got your 2 boys and it's just like, it's a beautiful, happy ending. Kristen: Thank you.

Johanna: Thank you so much, Kristen, for your time, your expertise, your knowledge, your beautiful smile and for, you know, sharing with us so much because, even in speaking with you in person knowing that you've helped so many women from, you know, in their 20s, thirties, 40s, 50s with fertility. You know, seeing over 700 births and babies, go through your office and practice is a beautiful thing of what you do focusing on fertility and in women's health.

Kristen: Well, thank you so much for having me on and I really, am inspired by your work as well, you are changing more than just the hair on their head. You know, it's like a deep emotional recovery that you're helping people with. So I thank you for your work as well.

Johanna: Thank you. Thank you so much.